![]() “I was just kind of standing in until Leon Panetta was confirmed. “I was only President Obama’s CIA chief for three weeks,” General Hayden says. He tells us of his experience between the current presidential administration and the last one. This makes understanding the way a policy maker learns an imperative part of that job. He calls this “The Unpleasant Fact.” Because the policy maker tends toward unrealistic optimism, there’s almost always a resistance toward this fact - which makes the intelligence agent’s job that much harder, according to General Hayden. General Hayden says it’s the job of the intelligence agent to get in the head of the policy maker and bring some realistic pessimism to the table. The policy maker: the world as we want it to be.” The policy guy, he’s trying to take his first principles - you know, the ones that got him elected - and apply them to specific circumstances. “The intel guy is inherently swimming out of detail trying to create a generalized conclusion. General Michael Hayden, author of Playing to the Edge: American Intelligence in the Age of Terror and former director of the NSA and CIA under President George W. ![]() Each enters the scene from a different door - literally and, in a way, figuratively. When tactical decisions are made in the Oval Office, they include input from an intelligence agent and a policy maker. We’ll discuss the differences in the way intelligence agents and policy makers view the world, domestic spying, ISIS, the Apple iPhone encryption controversy, General Hayden’s take on Edward Snowden and Donald Trump, and a lot more. ![]() Today we’re talking with General Michael Hayden, former Director of the NSA and CIA and author of Playing to the Edge: American Intelligence in the Age of Terror. Episode 523 of The Art of Charm may be a step outside the comfort zone for some, but we felt it was a fascinating opportunity to give our listeners something topical and different from the usual fare.
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